OK, I know this post is a little bit stale dated but I have been working the numbers on Sam's PBR. Correct me if I am wrong but if one of his tanks is 1,200 square metres that is about 34 metres x 34 metres in length and width and to fill a tank of that dimension with 3,785,000 letres it would need to be over 3.2 meters tall. Now that is a big tank full of growing algae. If he in fact has an efficient reactor that is that big I want him to contact me today. URL being pacificrimbiodiesel.com and the email is reberhard.

Varsha

I am new here. I like what you are saying. cAn u elaborate ! Please.

Both Dade and Alan indicate huge profits. What about MattS ?
What are your numbers?
Cost of your PBR ? what species can be grown? How much doest it cost to get the third party certification done? what are they supposed to certify ? why do you need a univ to certify ? why can t we manufacture algae biofuel or a co product and start marketing it?

If you go ahead and spend the money to do it the right way, at the correct scale, with the best technology, the productivity gains more than offset the price. We're ready to prove it, but can't afford to. All it takes is capital for 3rd party University testing. The amount of oil it is possible to grow today is staggering. We can't wait to prove it!

PBR's can be made at home.B ut it depends on type of algae usage.using simple semi transparent plastic sheets we can design a PBR.

If the profitability of algae to fuel / feed / astanxanthin is so huge, why isnt private equity flowing into it.
After all unlike other biofuels, algae doesnt affect the food because of the fuel and atleast not as much as ohter plants.

I am a first timer and am here just like that. Neither strong in algae research like most of you guys nor am i good at numbers. Pardon me if this is scam/ or too dumb a question.

Dade

Is Astanxanthin priced at $ 341 per tonne or is it the selling price of bio mass ?

I guess it is the price of biomass.
The net profit figures of $ 4 m looks impressive.

@ Alan
Alan's numbers are even better and what is more it is easier to work with.

$ 50000 per day for 300 days is
$ 15 m gross profit
That sounds like bank robbery :-)

I think what Alan means is gross sales or revenue.
If you deduct 60 % as various costs that still leaves $ 6 m behind as profits.

Is my understanding right ?

Good questions Duncan!!

How can u say or the company say that

"Gross Projected Yearly Revenue
$10,472,450.

Projected Fixed and Variable Costs @ 60% =
$6,283,470."

Fixed cost is fixed. That must be given separately. Variable cost is variable and that must be given separately.

What are the heads taken in Fixed cost and what are the heads taken in Variable costs?

@ Dade

Thanks for collecting the important information.Very useful.
It will be nice if we can get more details on
a. " Projected Fixed and Variable Costs @ 60% =
$6,283,470."

What are the Fixed costs ? I mean what are the heads of Fixed costs ?
a. PBR, b. Land, c. Provision for water supply, etc ?
In other words, what all does it include?
What are the variable costs ? Similarly, what all does
' variable' cost include ?


What are the other miscellaneous costs like contamination
management, water supply, special nutrition etc.,

I am assuming as no one has questioned, that there is no major
dispute about the quantum of dry biomass produced.

Greetings all, this has grown into quite a discussion. And lots of very interesting discussion points. A couple of glairing obvious points shine through:

1. PBR do provide control of inputs – thus measurable outputs. ( known)
2. You can manufacture cheapish PBR units – it is all relative. ( known)

But and here is the kicker, how much algae do we need for our purposes, (we have all read the DOE report) and how much will that energy be worth!!!!!!
• Fuel – imagine the Energy Mass Balance on the equipment, and all inputs to make any serious impact on fuel supply, with contained PBR. ( this is from over 6 years of Algae fuel business) Let be real !!!!

• Food – not as bad a Fuel – but we can create HVP (high value product) with PBR and that algae material is NEEDED! and very valuable !! Especially when our wild stock is been decimated (fish) globally.

I will say this again – and will keep on saying - we have thousand of hectares of nutrient rich algae/bacteria laden ponds globally – which in most cases we send in to our rivers and sea.
Before we start recreating nature (just because we can) let start modifying and utilising the currant algae waste (old term) and create this into energy !!!

Algae Bill

I managed to find these projections with regard to the DVJ project. I don't have linear cost bias on the PBR but will be trying to get that ASAP.

The plastic lined and water filled basins are used for cooling; the cooling water is supplied from and returned to its natural source.

I hope you all don't view this as spam; I am just looking for non-biased opinions on sustainability and the overall efficiency / realism of this company.



BioCentric Energy Holdings, Inc. provided the following Projected Revenues for the Company's Five Acre Site in Death Valley Junction, California.

Management has released the following projections: The following calculations relate to the Company's specific location at DVJ, in Southern California.
Projected Production Value of Astaxanthin per week:
 
Gallons of Water per One (1) Acre PBR
148,900
Ounces of Algae Extracted per Gallon of Water in a one week period
 X 0.03128
Total System Capacity of Ounces of Algae Extraction per week
4,658
 
 
Number of Ounces in One (1) Pound
 / 16
Total Algae Biomass Weight in Pounds per week
291.10
Pounds in Kilograms
 / 2.2
Value of Biomass per Kilogram
 X 341.00 
Total Production Value of Biomass per Week 
$45,120.42
 
 
PROJECTED NET REVENUE FROM PBR SYSTEMS :
 
Number of Operating Acres (5 Acre Increments) 
5
Operating Days per Year 
330
Operation in weeks  
46.42
Gross Projected Yearly Revenue 
$10,472,450.
Projected Fixed and Variable Costs @ 60% =
$6,283,470.
 
 
Projected First Net Revenue from 5 acres in one year =
$4,188,980.

Today the Santa Ana Algae Team prepared and forwarded two BioCentric Haematococcus product samples (one stressed, and one in replication phase) to the University of Utah for third party analysis. The results will be shared with Dr. Melis at UC Berkley for review and possible enhancement procedures. The Algae Team has also been constructing the inoculant for transport to Death Valley and simultaneously has begun the water refinement process for Number One CAB (Control Algae Basin) in Death Valley. Next week the Team will introduce the entire nutrient base and then hourly monitor for contamination. Optimum performance of no contamination will result in the introduction of the inoculant by the end of next week. The Algae Ventures Extractor is being transported to Death Valley for hook up also by the end of next week. 

I agree with all of you....we must keep the cost per ton of algae produced low.

There is no free lunch!

But there is scalability.
If you can divide your initial input and production costs by enough gallons the cost on a per
gallon basis becomes very reasonable. Try and hold the footprint to a minimum and build for at least a 20+ year useful life.
A plastic lined ditch is NOT the way to go.

Cheers,

Alan Schaefer

http://www.biocentricenergy.com/

is allegedly manufacturing a low cost PBR.

http://s993.photobucket.com/home/Richard_Regnell/allalbums

What Say You?

Dear FOA, Here is the math for the gross return figure of ~$50,451. Here are some hints.
We say 'algae', we may be using algae.....maybe something else??
We may be using LEDs, maybe no light at all. We do harvest more than one time every 24 hours. Many times???? Ok, enough of the games, here are the figures. Remember, it ain't 'braggin' if you can do it.

113,400,000 gr/day/1 million gal.
-----------------
454 gr/ lb.

= 249,779.73 lbs. dry algae/ day
------------
2 (50% oil & 50% meal)

= 124,889.86 lbs each for oil&me

Lets figure the value for oil first.

124,889.86 lbs oil/day
---------------
7.5 lbs./gal of oil

=16,651.98 gal oil/day/PBR
----------
42 gal/barrel

=
396.47 barrels /day
X $80.00 per barrel

=$31,718.05 /day for oil


Now for the dry algae meal;

124,889.86 lbs/day dry algae meal
------------
2,000 lbs/ton

=62.44 tons/day
X $300.00 per ton

$18,733.47/day for meal


$31,718.05 /day for oil
+ $18,733.47 /day for meal

= $50,451.00 Gross return
per day.

There are the numbers. This is for just one reactor of 1,000,000
gals. (footprint of 1200 sq meters) A medium size emitter would be maybe10 reactors.
Take the 50,451 X 365 days per year and it starts to look pretty interesting.

Alan Schaefer

schaeferbioengineering.com

There are ways to reduce the costs, but it takes careful planning and negotiating. And as supply and demand fluctuate, so will the prices.

SATPATI is right.

For mass cultivation ie for fuel , bioplastics, feed etc we need tokeep the cost low.

But a pbr gives control and we can work at absorbing large quantities of CO2. Per ton of CO2 absorbed is probably equal to ( from hearsay and uncertain sources) is equal to Euros 30/ ton !!

Mia Franceska

That is a good question. How did Alan arrive at that !!

SATPATI

With Open race way ponds how do u control contamination?
Let us discuss about raceway pond algae cultivation some other time.
Let us now talk about how to make a low cost PBR ? What characteristics of a good PBR will ahve tobe sacrificed to make a low cost PBR.

I am assuming the PBR is designed for a commodity product like fuel or plastics. Because we cant forego any control on the PBR when we want to make High value products.

Also what are the typical operating costs in a PBR, how muchdo they cost ie light, nutrients, mixing etc and how does the cost differ from high value product to low value product?

yes this is right that PBRs are most costly alternative but we can make race-way pond for mass production of algae. recent days i am cultivating algae in a race-way pond, made with cement & it gives good result.

Alan Schaefer

How did you arrive at

"Gross return per PBR/day for oil and algae meal $50,496.00"

Pl provide more details on that ?

What about operating cost of yor PBR ? Light, CO2, nutrients etc ?

Dear FOA,

I am proud of all of you! You are for the most part staying on topic and thinking about the design and costs of modern PBR systems.

I might suggest that you think BIG, real big. Its the only way to operate at a profit. Search different industries for the needed technologies for your
growing, harvesting, etc.
systems, on an individual need basis there is probably something
out there that will do the job.
You can always buy used equipment to get by 'on-the-cheap'. Use 'form follows function' in your design and always "kiss". Be sure to know very well what makes your algae happy and then strive to give the very best growing conditions possible.

I have given you the simple math tools to figure out just about any problem. i.e. production rate, how to convert cfm of CO2 into lbs of CO2 and visa-versa.
How to figure out the Gross returns per reactor, size of reactor needed to handle X cfm of CO2, etc. You have the tools now apply your knowledge of algae, your imagination, and lets see some great PBR designs.

Don't be constrained by what is barely possible today. One thing we both know is that we need to design with an eye on the future. Surely algae production will, in the future, be greatly improved from what it is today.

Good Luck to all of you. Things are getting busy again, 16 hour days, so I might not be on-line for a while.

Warm Regards,

Alan Schaefer

What are the ways of designing a lower cost / less expensive PBR.

In other words in the present PBRs, what are the important/ critical design considerations and what are the expensive components.

What are the ways in which we can reduce the costs ?

Is there any way we can reduce the operating costs ?

This is my first input into Oilgae. There is no cheap cost. We have developed an integrated package to first take all emissions off of a 600 MW power plant, produce fertilizer from the NOx and SO2 and have over 7,500 tons of clean CO2 per day as a by-product. This will produce about 2 million gallons of oil/year. Cost for the PBR system is about $400 million. Also the bio-mass is sold. ROI is about 20%/year selling the oil at $0.85/gallon and after operations cost. The key is doing this on 300 Ac not 15,000 Ac and we have low power cost being at the power plant.

If PBRs become inexpensive, ie if both capital cost and operating cost comes down, we will be cultivating algae large scale and will have oil extraction plants.
Algae may become drop in fuel at the existing petroleum crude refineries or it can be extracted and refined in modular extractors like the ones Origin oil makes.

These modular refineries are meant for small and medium scale refining.
So, instead of centralised processing and refining for the petroleum crude, we may have distributed refining of algal oil.

In future, given the cost of CO2, all products will be going for distributed manufacturing instead of centralised manufacturing.

The benefit of economy of scale in manufacturing, will be more than offset by the cost of carbon credits one would lose in transporting the manufactured goods by the centralised manufacturing model.

What Algae Bill says is important.
We cant brush aside his question saying that nutrients are to be used whether it is raceway ponds or PBR. Or for that matter the quantiy and quality of nutrients will be same whether the cost of the PBR is high or low.

What Algae BIll says is that if we use up large quantities of these nutrients and water, we will be getting into food vs fuel debate again.

I guess, we will be finding cheaper and efficient technology for lighting and CO2, sooner than later.

The question is very hypothetical.
If PBR became cheap ....?

If gas/ petrol prices dont go up...

If there is no climate change ...
ha ha

My biggest issue is in the consumables – power, nutrient and in some cases Co2 and lighting they are expensive!! And are not likely to be come cheaper as we compete with food consumption nutrient users.
And that is whey we should be looking into harvesting wild algae before contemplating, culturing new selective species in controlled environments. And there are allot of issues relating to energy conversion from wild algae but equally some great solutions – nature is good at what it does but sometimes we can give it a nudge to get it working better for us. Just my opinion!!! ;)
PS . ( just a note – I just love building PBR VPBR and other algae culturing methods and process – that is why my number plate on my Car says ALGAE – and to contrary local opinion “I am not all gay” he he he )
Algae Bill

Greetings all, I am sorry I did not pick up on this discussion earlier. I personally think they are!!But we have to compare apples with apples - when I build PBR and that would be nearly every week, I have 2 fundamental drivers -
(1) The total volume of the PBR
(2) What gm/3 - mg/l I can daily harvest off.
And other aspect of the cost of PBR is material for constructions are a one off and sometimes not too expensive – I have build a 12 lt system that cost under 100 NZD and I build a glass one at 3000 NZD horse for courses, the glass one works great – real sensitive (good for food grade algae) but the plastic helly tube one good for other uses, like energy.

If PBRs become cheap, ( I dont know what one means by cheap, cheaper than what ? ) however for the sake of argument, accepting that pbrs become cheap both for capital cost and for delivering CO2, nutrients, light etc , then we would be having pbrs around all coal power plants.

60 percent of CO2 is generated by these power plants and these PBRs can absorb them all.

What are the costliest inputs in a PBR of the size Alan Schafer is talking about ?

If the PBR became cheap, that would be the day for algae.
And algae biofuels.
The only reason we are not going and cultivating and extracting oil is because of the large piece of land required. If PBRs became cheap, we will have control and we can make drop in fuel.

It is also possible to consider channels for cultivation and delivery.

For example we can visualise each petrol pump to have PBRs of the size SAM Deveolopment is talking about.

Ofcourse if we have some simple small scale oil extraction and refining capability attached to these pumps - we will grow and convert to oil without any transportation of crude oil as it happens nowadays with petroleum crude.

So the question is what is cheap?
SAM development says it is 38 cents per gallon is economical.
Does that mean that SAM Development has been able to get a profit of $ 18000 per annum as against the capital cost of say
40 cents per annum ?
Am I understanding it right ?

The profits are huge.
I guess after this there are the operating costs. Right ?

Shankar, thanks brother for the support and I agree 100% with ALL your suggestions, lets keep the pressure until they get it right.

The most economical price I have been quoted for a 1,000,000 gallon tank was .38 cents per gallon capacity. That is just for a 4" concrete floor with tilt up concrete walls. This structure is approved by the EPA for holding sewage sludge, so the seals between the floor and walls must be pretty good. This tank would be built in an excavated pit that is 50% as deep as the side walls are high. The top 45 to 50% of the walls are backfilled with the excavated dirt from the pit. The entire structer has a building over it that has positive air pressure. Expected life +20 years.

I am pained to see the restriction on size affecting the contributors as it has done in the case of
Alan Schafer.

Can we have the restrictions upped to 20,000 characters. Can we have other facilities like edit as I had asked in my earlier post built in this " topic of the week"

What is required in this site is the ability to EDIT. Also we need an ability to BOLD, underline etc.,

We all are collaborating from different parts of the world and are trying to share our views on a different topics.

When we make spelling mistakes the meaning is sometimes not conveyed. Atleast not conveyed properly.

The potential to understand wrongly or not understand the point exists and that needs to be eliminated.

"What if the PBRs became cheap?"

No one wants to discuss that.
Nest question is
" What are the ways of designing and manufacturing cheap PBRs" ?

This is too general a question and very difficult to answer I guess.

If we were to design a low cost PBR,
what would be the design considerations?

What will we forego for minimising the capital cost ?

Finally, when we come to Operating Cost,

what constitute the major cost?

Should we forego light control to reduce the operating cost ?
OR is it better to monitor nutrient control less effectively to keep costs low?
Agreed before we decide to reduce the costs, we need to first understand what are the current costs and how do they affect the cost/ price of the final product.

I strongly believe that, the answer is yes..

Bcz a long polythene cover can serve and multiple numbers, increases the yield.. I have seen such photo's some where

This will read a little easier if you go down to where I was whining (4th entry down from here) and read up the list from there I think it will make more sense.

Let's try to run through some of the costs envolved.

Installation cost for a 1,000,000 gallon structure and lighting and collection, and harvesting etc.etc. ~3,000,000.00
3,000,000 divided by 20 years life = 150,000 per year depreciation cost per PBR.
$150,000 divided by 365 days per year = $410.95 per PBR/day depreciation. $410.95 divided by 1,000 square meters/PBR = .41 cents per square meter per day depreciation cost. Gross returns of (see below) minus .41 cents dosen't seem that expensive, does it??

Cont.
Gross return per PBR/day for oil and algae meal $50,496.00

$50,496.00 divided by 1,000 sq meters of surface area equals
$50.49 per sq.meter per day. Gross return.

$50.49/day times 365 days/year = $18,428.85 per year per square meter of surface area. Try that in a ditch!

I'll try one more time!
Let's keep this in cost/returns per sq. meter of surface area. That seems what most people on this list are stuck on. If you read my past contributions you can calculate everything you need to know.

O.K. Our PBR has a surface area of 1,003 sq. meters. We will use 1,000. It holds 1,000,000+ gallons or about 3,785,000 liters. Cost is ~$3,000,000
Expected useful life +20 years.
SEE NEXT BLOG ENTRY.

Twice I have tried to post to this subject and have seen
nothing appear here. Both posts where below the 2,000 mark.

What's going on???

Alan Schaefer

Pbr's Need to be rated cost wise based on Volumne of media envolved. I can build one for less than $75.00 to handle 5 gallons of media at a time or 55 gallons for $150.00. The units layed as a tube on the ground handle as much media as you stretch the tubing. Its not a apple to apple comparison. A 5 gallon unit can be built for the price of a Water bottle.

Well, no cost reduction happens y magic. The rule is simple - you figure out what stages/components give rise to high costs, and then explore how to reduce costs for these components.

I know this is easier said than done. The point I am trying to make is, can we put down the major cost components for both capital and operating expenses in order for us to giving our thoughts on how to reduce each of these?

Andreas Abraham

This is the forum for prices and costs . Prices comparison as you said. First prices and then prices comparison.

It will be nice if you can give your specifications and rates.

We will also look at pbr design.

Then there is the other aspect of Operating cost. We need to discuss that too.

If I am sounding like a student listing out all that are mentioned in the topic, am sorry.
I was a good student and the same mentality continues :-)

Hey - guys and gals, - wake up!!!
What is expensive and what is cheep!!!???
Could we please have something to compare!!!???
As much as I remember I have already given price examples for our PBR-systems, but never have I seen some other producers of PBR able to do the same!
What if you would start collecting some prices for PBR-systems - and good luck!!!